revtothelimit - motorbike forum

Posted: **Thu Nov 07, 2024 1:55 pm**

Anonymised in the same way that medical data is? That is, very easily unanonymised.

How do the T&Cs get on with a second or more owner who bought the car privately?

Posted: **Thu Nov 07, 2024 1:58 pm**

I've never tried to un-anonymise so I dunno

I know Porsche had to stop selling the Boxster in the EU though 'cause it doesn't meet the latest cyber security laws.

I would guess that the older ECU based systems which needed physically plugging in were vague / anonymous enough that T&Cs weren't required, or maybe you signed 'em at the dealer. The newer online systems will have a massive list you accept when you first create and account of course.

Posted: **Thu Nov 07, 2024 1:59 pm**

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 1:37 pm I've posted this loads of times, but your car collects laods of data about you (or at least, your driving) and sends if back to the mothership. It's been this way for at least 30 years, with increasing levels of sophistication. If your car has any sort of plug it in to dealer aspect to it during servicing, that's one of the things it's doing. If you've got an app or an online car we know loads about it.

Does this 'plug it into dealer aspect' include use of the OBD port? I (possibly naively) thought this was only to store error codes.

I find the idea of 'online' cars completely bonkers. Taking it to its illogical extreme, someone with bad intentions could hack into your car while you're driving. This is the stuff of dystopian 'plucky individual vs. big brother' movies. And who pays for the internet access?

Posted: **Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:02 pm**

mangocrazy wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 1:59 pm Taking it to its illogical extreme, someone with bad intentions could hack into your car while you're driving. This is the stuff of dystopian 'plucky individual vs. big brother' movies. And who pays for the internet access?

Comes for free on my car, it has it's own 4/5G. YMMV.

But yeah you can hack it, that's why Porsche had to stop selling the Boxster. They're not the only firm hit that way.

For obvious reasons there's a very clear break between critical driving functions and other stuff.

Posted: **Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:07 pm**

For obvious reasons there's a very clear break between critical driving functions and other stuff.

Hmmm, excuse me if I'm not entirely convinced. If Mr Bad Man can hack into your car, he's also likely to know a few back doors to areas he shouldn't have access to.

Posted: **Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:09 pm**

They're not physically connected.

As you might imagine, lots of rules in this area. It's also that way for basic safety/reliability design - much less to think and worry about!

EDIT: Put it this way, these systems have been around for many years now. Even fully online cars have been on the market for >10 years. Have you ever heard of one being hacked to become a run away car? Although I suppose, if you were a Really Good™ hacker you'd be able to hide the evidence

Posted: **Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:13 pm**

mangocrazy wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 1:59 pm
Mr. Dazzle wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 1:37 pm I've posted this loads of times, but your car collects laods of data about you (or at least, your driving) and sends if back to the mothership. It's been this way for at least 30 years, with increasing levels of sophistication. If your car has any sort of plug it in to dealer aspect to it during servicing, that's one of the things it's doing. If you've got an app or an online car we know loads about it.
Does this 'plug it into dealer aspect' include use of the OBD port? I (possibly naively) thought this was only to store error codes.

I find the idea of 'online' cars completely bonkers. Taking it to its illogical extreme, someone with bad intentions could hack into your car while you're driving. This is the stuff of dystopian 'plucky individual vs. big brother' movies. And who pays for the internet access?

Lots of possibilities. Police won't need stingers - just dab, dab, Enter.....screeeeeeeech! Wife can hack it and meet you at the door - with rolling pin and 'At the office again/driving to Birmingham, you say...".

Also, how soon before someone publishes a hack to release all those features the manufacturer expects you to pay for?

Posted: **Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:15 pm**

Count Steer wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:13 pm Also, how soon before someone publishes a hack to release all those features the manufacturer expects you to pay for?

Well you can say that about anything software driven, which is basically everything these days

People don't do it for the same reason(s) the don't commit any other crime I suppose.

Again, this is part of why some cars like the Boxster had to be taken off the market. They don't meet newer cyber security laws.

Posted: **Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:39 pm**

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:09 pm They're not physically connected.

As you might imagine, lots of rules in this area. It's also that way for basic safety/reliability design - much less to think and worry about!

EDIT: Put it this way, these systems have been around for many years now. Even fully online cars have been on the market for >10 years. Have you ever heard of one being hacked to become a run away car? Although I suppose, if you were a Really Good™ hacker you'd be able to hide the evidence

Yes https://fractionalciso.com/the-groundbr ... rsecurity/

Posted: **Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:42 pm**

MrLongbeard wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:39 pm
Mr. Dazzle wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:09 pm They're not physically connected.

As you might imagine, lots of rules in this area. It's also that way for basic safety/reliability design - much less to think and worry about!

EDIT: Put it this way, these systems have been around for many years now. Even fully online cars have been on the market for >10 years. Have you ever heard of one being hacked to become a run away car? Although I suppose, if you were a Really Good™ hacker you'd be able to hide the evidence
Yes https://fractionalciso.com/the-groundbr ... rsecurity/

And Tesla too, https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... rol-brakes

Posted: **Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:43 pm**

MrLongbeard wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:39 pm
Mr. Dazzle wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:09 pm They're not physically connected.

As you might imagine, lots of rules in this area. It's also that way for basic safety/reliability design - much less to think and worry about!

EDIT: Put it this way, these systems have been around for many years now. Even fully online cars have been on the market for >10 years. Have you ever heard of one being hacked to become a run away car? Although I suppose, if you were a Really Good™ hacker you'd be able to hide the evidence
Yes https://fractionalciso.com/the-groundbr ... rsecurity/

Ha.

That's no doubt a big part of why the law got loads stricter

I'd not seen that before.

Should point out I work for neither Jeep nor Tesla and of course our cars are way better

Posted: **Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:49 pm**

Yeah, but where there's a will there will be a scroat with a way to beat it.

Posted: **Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:50 pm**

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:43 pm Should point out I work for neither Jeep nor Tesla and of course our cars are way better

Nothing to see here, move along please...

Posted: **Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:51 pm**

MrLongbeard wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:49 pm Yeah, but where there's a will there will be a scroat with a way to beat it.

That's true of anything though and things just change.

Can't get into a modern car with a coat hanger* for example.

*bet you can with a Tesla

Posted: **Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:51 pm**

Pardon me for not quite trusting any corporation not to do shitty or incompetent stuff and then express surprise when caught in flagrante.

And shortly followed by insincere apologies that change nothing and don't stop them doing similar in the future.

Posted: **Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:57 pm**

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:51 pm
MrLongbeard wrote: Thu Nov 07, 2024 2:49 pm Yeah, but where there's a will there will be a scroat with a way to beat it.
That's true of anything though and things just change.

Can't get into a modern car with a coat hanger* for example.

*bet you can with a Tesla

True, and no one thought of relay attacks, it's always been a game of cat and mouse and I don't expect it to change anytime soon

Posted: **Thu Nov 07, 2024 5:31 pm**

I'm surprised Jeep got hacked like that, less surprised about Tesla, if I'm honest.

In our cars certain functions are separated, they're not on the same CAN as the stereo etc. As I understand it this is mostly to make the safety cases easier/more robust rather than to avoid hacking, but it would have the same effect.

I thought that was the law, rather than our company policy. I dunno, maybe it is now.

Posted: **Thu Nov 07, 2024 7:28 pm**

weeksy wrote: Mon Oct 28, 2024 4:31 pm Mine is a 2016 and the end of the non-wet belts. TBH mate you're wrong with the amount of failures being 'so many', my next one is likely a wet-belt. Don't forget that the Transit was the best selling vehicle last year, not the best van, or the best commercial, but the best selling, highest number of ALL. They get hammered and abused... which is likely as much of a reason for the failures as anything else.

The wet-belt issue wouldn't put me off buying one... but i'd buy slightly more cautiously than a non-wet i admit in terms of where/dealer/backup.

Browsing Youtube (as you do) I found this assessment of wet belts. Pretty damning, if you ask me...

Posted: **Fri Nov 15, 2024 12:07 pm**

It ain't over until it's over...

Drove from Sheffield to Griff's AP Workshops in Tamworth and back yesterday, and when I came to move the van today the bloody low coolant alarm squawked at me. Rang up Autohaus Dolby and they said 'yes, now we've fixed the main problem (radiator) we move on to the next weak point in the cooling system and fix that'.

Hmmmm.

We shall see. Van is booked in for next Tuesday.

Posted: **Fri Nov 15, 2024 12:18 pm**

LOL shouldn't they have mentioned that at the time ?

revtothelimit - motorbike forum

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