revtothelimit - motorbike forum

Count Steer wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:48 pm

Slenver wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:38 pm

Count Steer wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:29 pm So you could drive a PHEV and never plug it in? Didn't realise their electric capability was so piffling. Might as well just get a non-plug in HEV?

You could, yeah. Would be a bit of a waste though.

And yes, a 'normal' hybrid would make much more sense then.

Oh, I was just clarifying. I thought a PHEV was basically an electric car with an on board generator (engine) that extended the range but it still needed charging after x miles.

Struggling to see the point really, unless you have a quite specific usage pattern with few long journeys.

It'd be ideal for me. All of my journeys are either <20 miles around MK (electric driving dream city BTW) or long distance to "go somewhere". Assuming I had the right charging tariff it'd make total sense.

At least....it will for a few more years until I can get a 300 mile range EV

Slenver wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:49 pm Interesting. Is there no way to dump electricity? Like, I dunno, start playing really loud music when going down steep hills with a full charge?

Italian cars from the 70s seemed to have no trouble dumping their electricity all over the place.

It's just a totally different scale of number. Only real solution is a huge bank of resistors and a heat sink. It might sound silly to convert your car's motion to heat, but that's all the brakes do anyway.

Count Steer wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:48 pm

Slenver wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:38 pm

Count Steer wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:29 pm So you could drive a PHEV and never plug it in? Didn't realise their electric capability was so piffling. Might as well just get a non-plug in HEV?

You could, yeah. Would be a bit of a waste though.

And yes, a 'normal' hybrid would make much more sense then.

Oh, I was just clarifying. I thought a PHEV was basically an electric car with an on board generator (engine) that extended the range but it still needed charging after x miles.

Struggling to see the point really, unless you have a quite specific usage pattern with few long journeys.

As far as I understand it, and I might not, PHEVs are basically cars with two powertrains that can be used either separately or together. Together they have their full power and are a bit greener cos some of that energy is from the battery, and separately they either have a little petrol engine or a little motor.

It's all a stopgap really until people stop worrying about battery range and can wean themselves off ICE.

Mind you, there are also slightly different applications of the same formula. The BMW i8, for example. Little 1.5l Mini engine plus motor makes it a little supercar. Or you can drive around using the Mini engine or just motor. Pretty cool really, though nobody bought them.

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:53 pm

Count Steer wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:48 pm

Slenver wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:38 pm
You could, yeah. Would be a bit of a waste though.

And yes, a 'normal' hybrid would make much more sense then.

Oh, I was just clarifying. I thought a PHEV was basically an electric car with an on board generator (engine) that extended the range but it still needed charging after x miles.

Struggling to see the point really, unless you have a quite specific usage pattern with few long journeys.

It'd be ideal for me. All of my journeys are either <20 miles around MK (electric driving dream city BTW) or long distance to "go somewhere". Assuming I had the right charging tariff it'd make total sense.

At least....it will for a few more years until I can get a 300 mile range EV

Slenver wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:49 pm Interesting. Is there no way to dump electricity? Like, I dunno, start playing really loud music when going down steep hills with a full charge?

Italian cars from the 70s seemed to have no trouble dumping their electricity all over the place.

It's just a totally different scale of number. Only real solution is a huge bank of resistors and a heat sink. It might sound silly to convert your car's motion to heat, but that's all the brakes do anyway.

Yeah. My sensible question would really have been that

It all comes down to one thing. ICE engines are most efficient running balls out whereas leccy motors are far less sensitive and far far more efficient.

You want an ICE engine which is only just powerful enough for cruising so you can run it flat out, then a leccy motor to fill in the peaks and troughs. Every Hybrid is trying to achieve that utopia, to greater or lesser degrees.

Slenver wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:55 pm

Count Steer wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:48 pm

Slenver wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:38 pm
You could, yeah. Would be a bit of a waste though.

And yes, a 'normal' hybrid would make much more sense then.

Oh, I was just clarifying. I thought a PHEV was basically an electric car with an on board generator (engine) that extended the range but it still needed charging after x miles.

Struggling to see the point really, unless you have a quite specific usage pattern with few long journeys.

As far as I understand it, and I might not, PHEVs are basically cars with two powertrains that can be used either separately or together. Together they have their full power and are a bit greener cos some of that energy is from the battery, and separately they either have a little petrol engine or a little motor.

It's all a stopgap really until people stop worrying about battery range and can wean themselves off ICE.

Mind you, there are also slightly different applications of the same formula. The BMW i8, for example. Little 1.5l Mini engine plus motor makes it a little supercar. Or you can drive around using the Mini engine or just motor. Pretty cool really, though nobody bought them.

^^^ that's why we got a HEV. 1.5l engine etc. Didn't have to bother getting a charger fitted. Drives on electric a bit, drives on ICE (charging the battery), can do 70mph on electric, downhill on motorways , can combine both for a bit more oomph, or you can switch it to electric only with regen braking for a short period (city mode - haven't tried it yet).

Count Steer wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:48 pm

Slenver wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:38 pm

Count Steer wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:29 pm So you could drive a PHEV and never plug it in? Didn't realise their electric capability was so piffling. Might as well just get a non-plug in HEV?

You could, yeah. Would be a bit of a waste though.

And yes, a 'normal' hybrid would make much more sense then.

Oh, I was just clarifying. I thought a PHEV was basically an electric car with an on board generator (engine) that extended the range but it still needed charging after x miles.

Struggling to see the point really, unless you have a quite specific usage pattern with few long journeys.

That's where I'm at. Looking at a RR Evoque PHEV, it will run for 39 miles on leccy power only, which would cover a lot of, if not most of my journeys. But I cant seem to get any figures for hybrid mode? Does that extend the battery range? If so to what? If I go for a 60 mile round trip, does it drop down to poor economy from the 1.5 petrol engine after 39 miles? That can't be right can it?

My old diesel 5'er will do 55mpg with a 700 mile range and it's got some gan in it.

Taipan wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 10:19 pm

Count Steer wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:48 pm

Slenver wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:38 pm
You could, yeah. Would be a bit of a waste though.

And yes, a 'normal' hybrid would make much more sense then.

Oh, I was just clarifying. I thought a PHEV was basically an electric car with an on board generator (engine) that extended the range but it still needed charging after x miles.

Struggling to see the point really, unless you have a quite specific usage pattern with few long journeys.

That's where I'm at. Looking at a RR Evoque PHEV, it will run for 39 miles on leccy power only, which would cover a lot of, if not most of my journeys. But I cant seem to get any figures for hybrid mode? Does that extend the battery range? If so to what? If I go for a 60 mile round trip, does it drop down to poor economy from the 1.5 petrol engine after 39 miles? That can't be right can it?

The Maxda CX60 looks 2.5l engine, 195mpg (combined) claimed

Taipan wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:28 pmIf you do long distances and the battery runs out they become really uneconomical due to their added weight. Given they (PHEVs) are about £10k more than thier diesel counterparts, that covers the 5 year £585 VED penalty and many tanks of juice. I'm struggling to afford to be green!

IIRC loads of leased plug-in hybrids were being returned at the end of contracts with their power cables never having been unpacked!

Count Steer wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 10:24 pm

Taipan wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 10:19 pm

Count Steer wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:48 pm

Oh, I was just clarifying. I thought a PHEV was basically an electric car with an on board generator (engine) that extended the range but it still needed charging after x miles.

Struggling to see the point really, unless you have a quite specific usage pattern with few long journeys.

That's where I'm at. Looking at a RR Evoque PHEV, it will run for 39 miles on leccy power only, which would cover a lot of, if not most of my journeys. But I cant seem to get any figures for hybrid mode? Does that extend the battery range? If so to what? If I go for a 60 mile round trip, does it drop down to poor economy from the 1.5 petrol engine after 39 miles? That can't be right can it?

The Maxda CX60 looks 2.5l engine, 195mpg (combined) claimed

Back to the Evoque and I see this quoted, "Econ/EV range:141mpg/34 miles", I don't understand what that actually means?

Taipan wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 10:19 pm

Count Steer wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:48 pm

Slenver wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:38 pm
You could, yeah. Would be a bit of a waste though.

And yes, a 'normal' hybrid would make much more sense then.

Oh, I was just clarifying. I thought a PHEV was basically an electric car with an on board generator (engine) that extended the range but it still needed charging after x miles.

Struggling to see the point really, unless you have a quite specific usage pattern with few long journeys.

That's where I'm at. Looking at a RR Evoque PHEV, it will run for 39 miles on leccy power only, which would cover a lot of, if not most of my journeys. But I cant seem to get any figures for hybrid mode? Does that extend the battery range? If so to what? If I go for a 60 mile round trip, does it drop down to poor economy from the 1.5 petrol engine after 39 miles? That can't be right can it?

Pretty much, yeah. The battery will be charged a little from driving around in some PHEVs, but this will of course use fuel, so it's not 'free'. And there will be some regeneration from braking which will also help a little with a couple of mpg, like a mild hybrid.

But ultimately, a PHEV is designed to be charged and run with a full battery. If you don't charge and just rely on regen and the engine charging the battery, then you're just paying a fee to carry all the weight around.

This is why the mpg figures will vary so widely - the standardised tests for economy will require an arbitrary journey length... let's say it's 50 miles, and they will assume you start with full battery and full fuel. So if you have a PHEV with a 50-mile range then the official figures will reflect electric-only economy and might give an equivalent of something impressive like 150mpg. But, if you never charge, then you'll be driving around in a 1 or 1.5 litre petrol engine dragging 2 tons along, and so might get 30-35mpg. In the real world it's likely to be a mix, including long journeys where you use both together for a long stretch. Ideally you'd average something like 70mpg... all figures being examples only

Nerdy edit: Just looked up how the actual economy tests are done. It's actually just 14.4 miles, with a mixture of speeds and gears at specific points and in a range of temperatures from 14-23º. For PHEVs, they do it several times, starting with a full battery and repeating until empty, so it's not quite as biased towards always having a full charge as I thought

Taipan wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 10:35 pm Back to the Evoque and I see this quoted, "Econ/EV range:141mpg/34 miles", I don't understand what that actually means?

As above, that'll just be the 'official' economy figure and the electric-only range.

Effectively this means that if you never leave the house without a full charge and never go more than 34 miles then you should expect an equivalent of 141mpg.

Lots of caveats there though. The 34 miles is, like all quoted figures, an ideal one and won't necessarily be real-world. Depends on driving style, plus temperature is a huge factor in battery efficiency. Also, where interior heat is 'free' in an ICE (or rather, the by-product of an inefficient engine), it's all paid for in an EV! So in the winter, with efficiency down and heating up, you'll get a lot less.

Also, even ignoring the way it's measured (see previous post) the 'mpg' equivalent is a pretty wild estimate, given that it'll depend on your personal electricity price and the current fuel price, both of which are a little unpredictable currently! Some people are paying the 'standard' 35p/kWh currently, some have a cheap nighttime rate of 8p, some have solar and it might be nearly zero, some will have a nighttime tariff but charge during the day at 40-50p, some will use public chargers at 50-100p. Clearly with a variance of 8-100p/kWh and fuel prices changing daily, it's pretty hard to nail down an equivalent mpg.

The reason I live in MK is because I moved here to work at was at the time called Integral Powertrain, but is now called https://ehelix.com. They're pretty much entirely about EVs now, but there was loads of piston engine stuff when I was there. It was started/is run by 4 ex Cosworth guys, including Roger Duckworth, son of Keith.

One of the big things I did there was construct and use computer models to help OEs work out what sort of Hybrids they should be looking at. This is more than 15 years ago now (time flies!) so the adoption was much lower then. We looked at everything from "Belt ISGs" (integrated starter/generator) all the way up to "parallel hybrids" with two motors, two gearboxes and an engine.

As you might expect, it depends massively on the style of driving you do and of course vehicles are not necessarily optimised for UK driving. Lots of speed up/slow down for example is great for a Hybrid and also something which happens loads in the US, the US is also the world's largest car market (or at least it was when I was at IP!).

Even the mild ones do make a reasonable difference though. It might only be 3-5mpg or something, but it does add up.

Slenver wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:23 am

Taipan wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 10:35 pm Back to the Evoque and I see this quoted, "Econ/EV range:141mpg/34 miles", I don't understand what that actually means?

As above, that'll just be the 'official' economy figure and the electric-only range.

Effectively this means that if you never leave the house without a full charge and never go more than 34 miles then you should expect an equivalent of 141mpg.

Lots of caveats there though. The 34 miles is, like all quoted figures, an ideal one and won't necessarily be real-world. Depends on driving style, plus temperature is a huge factor in battery efficiency. Also, where interior heat is 'free' in an ICE (or rather, the by-product of an inefficient engine), it's all paid for in an EV! So in the winter, with efficiency down and heating up, you'll get a lot less.

Also, even ignoring the way it's measured (see previous post) the 'mpg' equivalent is a pretty wild estimate, given that it'll depend on your personal electricity price and the current fuel price, both of which are a little unpredictable currently! Some people are paying the 'standard' 35p/kWh currently, some have a cheap nighttime rate of 8p, some have solar and it might be nearly zero, some will have a nighttime tariff but charge during the day at 40-50p, some will use public chargers at 50-100p. Clearly with a variance of 8-100p/kWh and fuel prices changing daily, it's pretty hard to nail down an equivalent mpg.

Thanks for your replies. A PHEV won't suit me at this point. Visiting my Daughter is a 70 mile round trip and one I like to use my car for and not the wifes. I feel with a PHEV id be driving inefficiently and wasting fuel, so i'd end up taking the wifes car instead. Its too much money to have sitting on the drive as a town car only, so a dirty diesel it is!

Taipan wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:56 am Thanks for your replies. A PHEV won't suit me at this point. Visiting my Daughter is a 70 mile round trip and one I like to use my car for and not the wifes. I feel with a PHEV id be driving inefficiently and wasting fuel, so i'd end up taking the wifes car instead. Its too much money to have sitting on the drive as a town car only, so a dirty diesel it is!

You could always charge at hers and steal all her electricity

I daresay a proponent of PHEVs would say that it would still work out for you as half the journey would be electric-only and the other half ICE +regen etc. But I've no idea. You'd have to do the sums I guess.

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:44 pm Believe it or not, this hypothetical person who lives at the top of a hill is a problem case for EV design. They set off in the morning with a fully charged battery, then drive down the mountain.

Cause their battery is fully charged they can't regen brake, forcing the car to use normal brakes only, which in turn forces you to fit normal sized brakes. If it wasn't for Miss Mountain you could fit smaller ones cause you'd always have regen.

Sorry



I'd love to get an EV but living up here isn't conducive - the long drive down, 5 months at minus temps and I would probably have to 'fight' for a parking space with a charger

When I can afford to buy a modern car I will get a Hybrid of some sort. But doubt I'll be able to go electric until I have a place with parking or a garage

Slenver wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 10:10 am

Taipan wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 9:56 am Thanks for your replies. A PHEV won't suit me at this point. Visiting my Daughter is a 70 mile round trip and one I like to use my car for and not the wifes. I feel with a PHEV id be driving inefficiently and wasting fuel, so i'd end up taking the wifes car instead. Its too much money to have sitting on the drive as a town car only, so a dirty diesel it is!

You could always charge at hers and steal all her electricity

I daresay a proponent of PHEVs would say that it would still work out for you as half the journey would be electric-only and the other half ICE +regen etc. But I've no idea. You'd have to do the sums I guess.

It's also a question of how clever the software is.

The very latest stuff for example can combine your Sat Nav route with the drivetrain - it doesn't charge the battery from teh engine if it knows you're about to go down a big hill. Stuff like that.

From time to time I look at the state of the EV market and rapidly come to the same coclusion I did last time - nope, doesn't work for me. The big drawback is I only have on-street parking, so not even a drive way I can call my own and fit a charging point near. Then there's the cost of buying an EV new, which is completely out of my reach. EV tech is advancing all the time, meaning that even a 3 or 4 year old EV is substantially less attractive than a current one. Then there are residuals on an EV - how long does a battery pack last before it becomes uneconomic to use and requires replacement? Then there's the charging infrastructure (or lack of) and the uncertain price of electricity in the future.

So there are just too many imponderables for me with EVs. I'll happily stick with my current model of buying cheap 10 y.o. diesels and running them into the ground, then rinse and repeat. At some point the supply of these cheap and cheerful shitters will dry up, but by that time I'll be in my dotage and won't give a hoot.

I'd happily have an electric car in the family, but it doesn't make sense financially at the moment with electricity prices where they are. If and when they go back to 'normal' then I'd consider.

I'll still keep my fun, petrol car for as long as I can though.

Potter wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:33 am

Slenver wrote: Fri Nov 04, 2022 11:29 am I'd happily have an electric car in the family, but it doesn't make sense financially at the moment with electricity prices where they are. If and when they go back to 'normal' then I'd consider.

I'll still keep my fun, petrol car for as long as I can though.

I'll be a monkeys uncle if the electricity companies announce that they've made enough money now thank you very much and they're going to drop prices back to 2019 tariffs.

Yeah, I agree. They'll have to drop some way, but I assume they'll drop enough to make it seem positive and then just stay there. Mid-20s or something, so still double previous prices.