revtothelimit - motorbike forum

asmethurst99 wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 8:39 pm Isn’t it Helmets reducing MC deaths significantly?

Improving standards on helmet construction are probably a factor but that's no different from improving car design and construction standards to reduce damage to the contents and the people they hit really.

You can probably factor in that older riders and to wear/can afford better clothing and armour, back protectors and good boots - none of which are compulsory but have definitely improved since 1979.

There are only limited things you can do with bike design (or tendencies to interact with the scenery when the power/skills balance gets squiffy ).

Road design has probably improved loads too.

Well there's no "probably" about, re: wot Yambe said.

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2025 7:43 am Road design has probably improved loads too.

Well there's no "probably" about, re: wot Yambe said.

Some of the simplest but very effective, road design changes I've seen are in France. You can be thrapping along through the countryside heading for the next village and, just before it, they've introduced a substantial kink/couple of bends - for no other reason than slowing down the incoming. Simples.

You been driving around Le Mans?

Count Steer wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2025 8:09 am

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2025 7:43 am Road design has probably improved loads too.

Well there's no "probably" about, re: wot Yambe said.

Some of the simplest but very effective, road design changes I've seen are in France. You can be thrapping along through the countryside heading for the next village and, just before it, they've introduced a substantial kink/couple of bends - for no other reason than slowing down the incoming. Simples.

I am not sure that is an 'improvement', more like kicking the problem into the long grass by moving the accidents out of town.

Cousin Jack wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2025 8:23 am

Count Steer wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2025 8:09 am

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2025 7:43 am Road design has probably improved loads too.

Well there's no "probably" about, re: wot Yambe said.

Some of the simplest but very effective, road design changes I've seen are in France. You can be thrapping along through the countryside heading for the next village and, just before it, they've introduced a substantial kink/couple of bends - for no other reason than slowing down the incoming. Simples.

I am not sure that is an 'improvement', more like kicking the problem into the long grass by moving the accidents out of town.

Seems fair enough, collect the people with poor obs and low cornering ability in one place.

Scotsrich wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 11:08 pm There are 3 junctions on a 2 mile stretch of the A1 near me with a proven accident rate including several fatalities. Will they do anything about them? Will they buggery. They'd much rather put a 20mph limit in a town.

Just hope they don't use the Swedish approach. EVERY junction on a main road gets a speed limit AND it's own set of speed cameras to enforce it.

Works quite well over there, mainly because junctions can be 10 - 20 miles apart.

Count Steer wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2025 8:09 am
Some of the simplest but very effective, road design changes I've seen are in France. You can be thrapping along through the countryside heading for the next village and, just before it, they've introduced a substantial kink/couple of bends - for no other reason than slowing down the incoming. Simples.

Is that recent (within the last 10 years or so)?

Part of counter-terrorism work was to identify ways of stopping lorry bombs.

That included tight bends on approach roads so the driver couldn't keep up high speeds to ram through defences.

And don't place any nunneries, kitten sanctuaries or orphanages on the outside of said tight bends

Felix wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2025 12:41 am

Scotsrich wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 11:08 pm

There are 3 junctions on a 2 mile stretch of the A1 near me with a proven accident rate including several fatalities. Will they do anything about them? Will they buggery. They'd much rather put a 20mph limit in a town.

One out of three aint bad https://www.eastlothiancourier.com/news ... dabout-a1/

The one at ASDA is a tad shit. No lane discipline what must be hell at busy times.

If only. That isn’t even one of them. That one gets the headlines because of the frequent but usually minor accidents.

The 3 I meant (which means nothing to 99.9 % on here) are the Cement works junction, the Innerwick turn off and the entrance to Torness all of which involves turning on or off a 70mph road with shit visibility.

Horse wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2025 8:30 am

Count Steer wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2025 8:09 am
Some of the simplest but very effective, road design changes I've seen are in France. You can be thrapping along through the countryside heading for the next village and, just before it, they've introduced a substantial kink/couple of bends - for no other reason than slowing down the incoming. Simples.

Is that recent (within the last 10 years or so)?

Part of counter-terrorism work was to identify ways of stopping lorry bombs.

That included tight bends on approach roads so the driver couldn't keep up high speeds to ram through defences.

First really noticed it in about 2005 on a fast, open approach to a village visible in the distance. The road headed directly towards it, then, on the outer edge there was a (clearly visible) wiggle. By the time you'd negotiated it you'd had time do a mental reset that you were in a new ball game sort of thing.

Then I started to notice the same thing elsewhere. Some places had cameras but they were rare.

Makes sense given their penchant for uncontrolled pedestrian crossings (or vv their apparent dislike of 'pelican' crossings).

Presumably road wiggles are the most effective way of slowing down traffic as it enters a built up area, 'cause you essentially can't ignore them.

Also the most expensive I'd guess!

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2025 9:12 am Presumably road wiggles are the most effective way of slowing down traffic as it enters a built up area, 'cause you essentially can't ignore them.

Also the most expensive I'd guess!

One thing the French don't seem to mind spending money on is road maintenance. The number of times I've seen 'Gravillons' signs and ridden on freshly laid gravel surfaces put on roads that we'd be delighted with before they did it made me wonder if there were industrial scale backhanders going on between the authorities and the gravel suppliers and road maintainers!

Count Steer wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2025 9:06 am

Horse wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2025 8:30 am

Count Steer wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2025 8:09 am
Some of the simplest but very effective, road design changes I've seen are in France. You can be thrapping along through the countryside heading for the next village and, just before it, they've introduced a substantial kink/couple of bends - for no other reason than slowing down the incoming. Simples.

Is that recent (within the last 10 years or so)?

Part of counter-terrorism work was to identify ways of stopping lorry bombs.

That included tight bends on approach roads so the driver couldn't keep up high speeds to ram through defences.

First really noticed it in about 2005 on a fast, open approach to a village visible in the distance. The road headed directly towards it, then, on the outer edge there was a (clearly visible) wiggle. By the time you'd negotiated it you'd had time do a mental reset that you were in a new ball game sort of thing.

Then I started to notice the same thing elsewhere. Some places had cameras but they were rare.

Makes sense given their penchant for uncontrolled pedestrian crossings (or vv their apparent dislike of 'pelican' crossings).

Ah, ok. Perhaps that's where CPNI (MI5) got the idea

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2025 9:12 am Presumably road wiggles are the most effective way of slowing down traffic as it enters a built up area, 'cause you essentially can't ignore them.

Also the most expensive I'd guess!

Oh, and expensive? Amortised over 30+ years? Nah.

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Sun Jan 12, 2025 2:54 pm It's also much harder to get a bike licence now. Even 20-30 years ago when I learned it was way more restrictive than it was in the 70s, it's got a load tougher in the last two decades as well. The "ride around the block" test is almost comically simple isn't it?

I can't remember passing my bike test as I was particularly drunk at the time

More modern design of major roundabouts will include a left bend immediately before entry to the roundabout. Erecting fences or growing bushes on the approach road is another technique to slow traffic, making the driver get closer to the give way line before being able to see traffic on the roundabout.

Pedestrian crossings are usually situated near to junctions as traffic is generally going slower there. Crossings in the middle of long, straight, fast roads was a good method of killing pedestrians.

Scotsrich wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2025 8:41 am
The 3 I meant (which means nothing to 99.9 % on here) are the Cement works junction, the Innerwick turn off and the entrance to Torness all of which involves turning on or off a 70mph road with shit visibility.

I haven't looked at the junctions you mention but any improvements to Trunk road junctions like those cost a fortune in capital expenditure and may well be the Highways Agency's responsibility. County Councils can't just start modifying junctions as they see fit, the traffic management costs alone (diverting traffic around the works) would bankrupt them.

The work I was doing was based simply on "why are drivers failing to cope with their environment at this particular point / junction but not at similar locations". The basic principle was to make some cheap engineering changes - if you change what people see, you'll probably change what they do. Putting a cycle lane along the sides of the carriageway makes it appear to drivers that the road they are on is narrower and they then drive slower. A half second increase in the intergreen time of traffic light sequences, bar markings/rumble strips, new signs etc.

The North Circular around that there Larnden went through a series of traffic calming evolutions over the years, islands/pedestrian refuges every one or two hundred metres, next up, a white line running from the opposing side carriageway to the left of the next island making it appear the road was narrowing and then full hatching between the islands. All cheap attempts to reduce overall speed.

Count Steer wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2025 9:22 am

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2025 9:12 am Presumably road wiggles are the most effective way of slowing down traffic as it enters a built up area, 'cause you essentially can't ignore them.

Also the most expensive I'd guess!

One thing the French don't seem to mind spending money on is road maintenance. The number of times I've seen 'Gravillons' signs and ridden on freshly laid gravel surfaces put on roads that we'd be delighted with before they did it made me wonder if there were industrial scale backhanders going on between the authorities and the gravel suppliers and road maintainers!

I've noticed that where my brother used to live in Normandy (near Domfront IIRC) the absolute worst road I drove on was about on par with the best I travel on in Cumbria.
They have more toll roads I get that but jeez, it was a hell of a change.

If thats all backhanders then their backhanders are a lot better value than ours.

Yambo wrote: Mon Jan 13, 2025 10:01 am More modern design of major roundabouts will include a left bend immediately before entry to the roundabout. Erecting fences or growing bushes on the approach road is another technique to slow traffic, making the driver get closer to the give way line before being able to see traffic on the roundabout.

Pedestrian crossings are usually situated near to junctions as traffic is generally going slower there. Crossings in the middle of long, straight, fast roads was a good method of killing pedestrians.

I would dispute that either of these make life safer! I have cursed many traffic engineers for this sort of 'design' (spit!).

My real bête noir is fences, bushes and other stuff to deliberately restrict visibility at roundabouts. FFS, if I can't see it I cannot give way! The local approach seems to be to make the roundabout tall and visually impenetrable. You can have a car approaching from the opposite direction at speed, clearly indicating a left turn, ie across my path and with priority, but I cannot see that vehicle until the last moment because the roundabout, signs, and foliage are all put there to block me.

Similarly as a pedestrian I would rather cross a fast road with good visibility where I can see traffic and judge its speed, rather than having a restricted view and rely on the driver negotiating the bend/junction at a reasonable speed.

And yet....the data clearly show that roads deaths have fallen enormously.

So maybe they're on to something after all.