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Re: Modern ICE vehicles are designed to burn oil
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2025 8:40 pm
by KungFooBob
IIRC the 'Campus' was the Gen 2 Clio that they made after the Gen 3 was released, for poor people.
Re: Modern ICE vehicles are designed to burn oil
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2025 10:59 pm
by demographic
So, no thoughts on piston ring tensions being reduced over the years, y'know like the OP mentioned?
Personally I've not had the chance to test various ones over the years but anecdotally can say my 05 Toyota van doesn't use a significant amount of oil and its over 250k miles.
If it was using a litre evsry thousand miles I'd think it was fucked.
Re: Modern ICE vehicles are designed to burn oil
Posted: Sun Jun 22, 2025 11:17 pm
by MrLongbeard
Now then, did he test OEM rings or aftermarket???
Re: Modern ICE vehicles are designed to burn oil
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2025 6:53 am
by mangocrazy
MrLongbeard wrote: Sun Jun 22, 2025 11:17 pm
Now then, did he test OEM rings or aftermarket???
Sir clearly hasn't watched the video. The first thing he did was to show unopened packs of genuine OE piston rings (Toyota) from different model years prior to doing his tests.
Re: Modern ICE vehicles are designed to burn oil
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2025 7:01 am
by David
KungFooBob wrote: Sun Jun 22, 2025 8:40 pm
IIRC the 'Campus' was the Gen 2 Clio that they made after the Gen 3 was released, for poor people.
I is a poor pensioner....it cost me £450.....
Re: Modern ICE vehicles are designed to burn oil
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2025 7:26 am
by Mr. Dazzle
demographic wrote: Sun Jun 22, 2025 10:59 pm
So, no thoughts on piston ring tensions being reduced over the years, y'know like the OP mentioned?
It wouldn't surprise me at all of this is the case.
The bit I would dispute is that it means engines burn loads more oil now. It is much more likely that OEMs have just got way better at calculating how tight they need to be. They've been optimised, like lots of things.
It might not only be the tension which has changed. The metal they're made from, the shape of them (i mean the cross section, not the fact they're circles
) and the manufacturing of the cylinders themselves could all have changed. Plus the oil itself is different now. Oh and the engine temperature control is better. And, and, and.....
The one thing I DO know for sure about friction, wear and sealing is that it's waaaaayyy more complicated than you'd think.
Re: Modern ICE vehicles are designed to burn oil
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2025 7:38 am
by Count Steer
Rockburner wrote: Wed Jun 18, 2025 8:35 am
Someone is going to have to explain to me how burning oil helps meet emissions standards....
Has anyone explained this yet?
Re: Modern ICE vehicles are designed to burn oil
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2025 9:21 am
by Mr. Dazzle
It doesn't
Reducing frictional losses within the engine does however.
This is one of the reasons manufacturers like downsizing and turbocharging too. As my old boss used to say "make the engine spin less, make each spin do more".
Re: Modern ICE vehicles are designed to burn oil
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2025 12:04 pm
by Rockburner
Mr. Dazzle wrote: Mon Jun 23, 2025 9:21 am
It doesn't
Reducing frictional losses within the engine does however.
Well - exactly - that's why I'm confused.
Mr. Dazzle wrote: Mon Jun 23, 2025 9:21 am
This is one of the reasons manufacturers like downsizing and turbocharging too. As my old boss used to say "make the engine spin less, make each spin do more".
Err - If I'm reading that right... your boss is advocating things like US style big-bore V8s, or 500cc singles with heavy flywheels - one big explosion that does a lot, reproduced infrequently. Low revving, but big bangs? Is that right?? Or have I misunderstood (which I might easily have done)
Re: Modern ICE vehicles are designed to burn oil
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2025 12:29 pm
by Count Steer
Rockburner wrote: Mon Jun 23, 2025 12:04 pm
Mr. Dazzle wrote: Mon Jun 23, 2025 9:21 am
It doesn't
Reducing frictional losses within the engine does however.
Well - exactly - that's why I'm confused.
Mr. Dazzle wrote: Mon Jun 23, 2025 9:21 am
This is one of the reasons manufacturers like downsizing and turbocharging too. As my old boss used to say "make the engine spin less, make each spin do more".
Err - If I'm reading that right... your boss is advocating things like US style big-bore V8s, or 500cc singles with heavy flywheels - one big explosion that does a lot, reproduced infrequently. Low revving, but big bangs? Is that right?? Or have I misunderstood (which I might easily have done)
Sounds logical to me RB...that's how I read it too.
Maybe my old Panther was the future, not the past.
Re: Modern ICE vehicles are designed to burn oil
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2025 1:22 pm
by Mr. Dazzle
Engine mechanical losses broadly speaking come down to pumping and friction.
Spinning slower reduces both because some are related to speed of movement.
Spinning fewer times in total reduces both also, because you slides all the bits over each other for shorter distances and move less gas.
Smaller engines move less gas and have smaller bits sliding over each other. But they make less power too, which is one reason to turbo. The other is that turbochargers increase the overall compression ratio of the engine (remembering that it's the difference between the outside world and the cylinder which really matters) for a smaller increase in mechanical losses. Increasing compression ratio is pretty much.the gold standard way of increasing engine torque, power and efficiency.
Re: Modern ICE vehicles are designed to burn oil
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2025 2:54 pm
by v8-powered
Count Steer wrote: Mon Jun 23, 2025 7:38 am
Rockburner wrote: Wed Jun 18, 2025 8:35 am
Someone is going to have to explain to me how burning oil helps meet emissions standards....
Has anyone explained this yet?
All I can say is that it does the catalytic converter no good at all - middle kids Shitroen C3 is always flagging up cat faults, no doubt full of unburnt oil from the dodgy PureTech engine!
Re: Modern ICE vehicles are designed to burn oil
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2025 3:31 pm
by MrLongbeard
mangocrazy wrote: Mon Jun 23, 2025 6:53 am
MrLongbeard wrote: Sun Jun 22, 2025 11:17 pm
Now then, did he test OEM rings or aftermarket???
Sir clearly hasn't watched the video. The first thing he did was to show unopened packs of genuine OE piston rings (Toyota) from different model years prior to doing his tests.
One watched half and listened to the other half of the video, I must have missed him stating they were OE rings and didn't see any thing on the packaging to clearly ID them as Toyota.
Re: Modern ICE vehicles are designed to burn oil
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2025 4:24 pm
by Rockburner
Mr. Dazzle wrote: Mon Jun 23, 2025 1:22 pm
Engine mechanical losses broadly speaking come down to pumping and friction.
Spinning slower reduces both because some are related to speed of movement.
Spinning fewer times in total reduces both also, because you slides all the bits over each other for shorter distances and move less gas.
Smaller engines move less gas and have smaller bits sliding over each other. But they make less power too, which is one reason to turbo. The other is that turbochargers increase the overall compression ratio of the engine (remembering that it's the difference between the outside world and the cylinder which really matters) for a smaller increase in mechanical losses. Increasing compression ratio is pretty much.the gold standard way of increasing engine torque, power and efficiency.
Surely the amount of gas being moved is only related to the swept volume (essentially) : if all the other parts can be made (effectively) the same size (ie valves etc) then the amount of gas flowed can vary quite a bit for very little difference in the mechanical parts effects (ie, just make the piston/cylinder bigger - bigger bang for same friction (more or less).)
Re: Modern ICE vehicles are designed to burn oil
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2025 4:37 pm
by mangocrazy
Just re-watched the first few minutes of the vid and the rings are for Toyota models but are in fact made by Goetze, so not OEM. But Goetze manufacture 'to OEM standards' so that's all right...
Re: Modern ICE vehicles are designed to burn oil
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2025 4:49 pm
by Mr. Dazzle
Rockburner wrote: Mon Jun 23, 2025 4:24 pm
Surely the amount of gas being moved is only related to the swept volume (essentially)
Swept volume and volumetric efficiency remember. I.e. how much gas flows Vs the geometric swept volume. We deliberately reduce volumetric efficiency by strangling the incoming air...we throttle it.
Violent things, engines. Throttles, chokes, clutches
With the ring thing though the performance boost just comes from making the rings easier to drag up and down the cylinders. Gotta remember they travel quite literally miles over the surface of the cylinder on even a short drive.
Re: Modern ICE vehicles are designed to burn oil
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2025 5:10 pm
by Horse
mangocrazy wrote: Mon Jun 23, 2025 4:37 pm
Just re-watched the first few minutes of the vid and the rings are for Toyota models but are in fact made by Goetze, so not OEM. But Goetze manufacture 'to OEM standards' so that's all right...
A pedant notes that 'OEM' means 'company that manufactures components', not the one that assembles the vehicle.
So, feasibly, Goetze might have made them for Toyota.
NB Mr. Dazzle says the definition has altered to mean, or encompass, the vehicle manufacturer. Pah. Youth of today, what do they know?
Re: Modern ICE vehicles are designed to burn oil
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2025 5:16 pm
by mangocrazy
Tha naas worra meen...
Re: Modern ICE vehicles are designed to burn oil
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2025 5:25 pm
by Mr. Dazzle
Toyota would be the vehicle OEM, the ring company would be a Tier 1 or 2.
However once you've got the ring out of the engine and you start talking about it in depth you might reasonably say "The ring OEM"
Clear as mud. Or a smokey exhaust.
Re: Modern ICE vehicles are designed to burn oil
Posted: Mon Jun 23, 2025 5:58 pm
by MrLongbeard
mangocrazy wrote: Mon Jun 23, 2025 4:37 pm
Just re-watched the first few minutes of the vid and the rings are for Toyota models but are in fact made by Goetze, so not OEM. But Goetze manufacture 'to OEM standards' so that's all right...
No wonder I missed it.
You have to, or at least I do, have to ask to what extent is this reduction in tension down to materials being downgraded by 3rd party suppliers to save money in addition to / instead of OEM materials specs.