A question on religious theology. The CoE to apologise (again).

[IccyV2]

I've got a mate that goes to church and he really didn't strike me as a religious bloke, so I asked him about it.
He said he doesn't believe in god, but if you follow the principles they lay down then you have to be kind to people, help your community and generally just be a nice human being, he said he believes in that.

I understand the criticisms of organised religion, but I think if you're one of the genuine live and let live types then it must get terribly boring to keep hearing people dig at it all the time.

[Rockburner]

I've got a mate that goes to church and he really didn't strike me as a religious bloke, so I asked him about it.
He said he doesn't believe in god, but if you follow the principles they lay down then you have to be kind to people, help your community and generally just be a nice human being, he said he believes in that.

I understand the criticisms of organised religion, but I think if you're one of the genuine live and let live types then it must get terribly boring to keep hearing people dig at it all the time.

My question would be.... why does he need a religion to behave like a nice person? Does he think that if he doesn't go to church then he'll suddenly undergo a major personality change?


(Yes - I understand the point that attending church can be seen as a social engagement event and thus bring a person into the community, but it's hardly the only such event).

[gremlin]

I'm like that, only I get a lie-in on a Sunday.

I think a lot of people simply see a genuine challenge to a specific question about their religion as an affront to it. I'm genuinely interested as to how something like the original article re forced adoptions could happen if an all-seeing, all-knowing, almighty kind and beatific entity is overseeing everything, as is the Christian (and other religions too) mantra.

So:

Was 'God' wrong back then? What's changed between now and then to change his mind? If he was wrong, should he atone?

If 'God' wasn't wrong, and somehow the message got muddled, how did he allow it to continue for so long? Surely his divine powers are up to ensuring the message was unambiguous. How can the Church be so sure that they're now not wrong about it now, and that 'God' doesn't still want them to take babies away from heathen mothers?

As for 'live and let live types'...I'm sure the mums who had their kids taken away would have loved to have been allowed to live and let live.

[Buckaroo]

"Suffer little children to come unto me....."

Taken literally, this is so wrong, but, no doubt there's an innocent explanation

As someone said, the worst thing was when the masses were educated.

Then the questions started and the house of cards came tumbling down.

[Taipan]

How did God instruct anyone and how is he culpable? People have claimed he said things, but there's no proof, just writings based on these claims. People can write anything and say God said it, or told them to do it, but, it may well be, and often has been, to their benefit.

How can you say, with ire, he is responsible for what people say or do, yet also claim you don't believe in him. That makes your argument and standpoint very week.

Most peoples faith is based upon a good and benevolent God, so they wont see your claims as anything other than disrespectful and antagonistic. The few people I know that are church goers are, in the main, very decent folk. They often take great comfort in their faith in the worst of times, and are normally active within the community in charitable and community projects.

This really just brings us back to people misinterpreting the good books for their own ends, be that everything from financial gain to warmongering. I can't see any mythical deity having case to answer either way.

[gremlin]

How can you say, with ire, he is responsible for what people say or do, yet also claim you don't believe in him. That makes your argument and standpoint very week.

My inverted commas make it evident that I'm being somewhat cynical when I refer to 'God'. And how could anybody take genuine questioning of an organisation's recorded behaviour as "disrespectful and antagonistic"? Nothing should be beyond scrutiny and question. Being offended could be viewed as a cynical attempt at avoiding that very scrutiny.

When you say "Most peoples faith is based upon a good and benevolent God", why didn't they question what was happening at the time? We're not talking the middle-ages here.

[Taipan]

How can you say, with ire, he is responsible for what people say or do, yet also claim you don't believe in him. That makes your argument and standpoint very week.

My inverted commas make it evident that I'm being somewhat cynical when I refer to 'God'. And how could anybody take genuine questioning of an organisation's recorded behaviour as "disrespectful and antagonistic"? Nothing should be beyond scrutiny and question. Being offended could be viewed as a cynical attempt at avoiding that very scrutiny.

When you say "Most peoples faith is based upon a good and benevolent God", why didn't they question what was happening at the time? We're not talking the middle-ages here.

No ones saying anything or anybody is beyond scrutiny. But, accusing all followers of a belief system for being as bad as the actual perpetrators is wrong. I'm sure the decent people were as outraged as what was done in the name of their church as anyone else, but they are as reliant on the laws of the land and those that enforce them as the rest of us.

I assume you're a decent, law abiding chap working in banking. But banking is far from unknown for corruption and the devastation it can, and has caused. Do I expect you to speak out or do something about it? Of course I don't, because i know not everyone in your industry is corrupt, and much good and charitable acts have come from it. Same with religion really...

[Cousin Jack]

I assume you're a decent, law abiding chap working in banking. But banking is far from unknown for corruption and the devastation it can, and has caused. Do I expect you to speak out or do something about it? Of course I don't, because i know not everyone in your industry is corrupt, and much good and charitable acts have come from it. Same with religion really...

I agree entirely that most 'religious' people are trying to be good. Most actually succeed in that they try to treat others fairly and to help those less fortunate. All major religions BTW, not just the Christian one.

My beef is why does anyone think that believing in something (a 'deity') with zero evidence is a good thing? I can (I hope) do some small good stuff in life whilst being a confirmed atheist, and I sincerely believe that 'religion' has been (and continues to be) a source of friction at best, and downright evil at worst. IMO it must be separated from the law and the state, and it's rules can only ever apply to consenting adults. No more bishops in the House of Lords, no more special pleading for religious organizations, and zero influence in justice (eg blasphemy laws, fairly recently overturned but now pressure to rebuild them to stop offending Islam.)

[IccyV2]

I've got a mate that goes to church and he really didn't strike me as a religious bloke, so I asked him about it.
He said he doesn't believe in god, but if you follow the principles they lay down then you have to be kind to people, help your community and generally just be a nice human being, he said he believes in that.

I understand the criticisms of organised religion, but I think if you're one of the genuine live and let live types then it must get terribly boring to keep hearing people dig at it all the time.

My question would be.... why does he need a religion to behave like a nice person? Does he think that if he doesn't go to church then he'll suddenly undergo a major personality change?


(Yes - I understand the point that attending church can be seen as a social engagement event and thus bring a person into the community, but it's hardly the only such event).

Yeah that's a good question.

To answer it briefly it's just a good way of identifying people open to communicating and being part of a community, if you go to church you're probably there to connect in a positive way with other charitably community minded people. You could do it through another group but you already kind of know what you're getting with church attendees.

There is a guy in Texas (ex special forces) who has made an inventory of everyone in his community (via his church) and what their skills are, he's then created a plan to manage major incidents like famines, pandemics, etc, using the skills in the community.
They can close off their small community, become self-sufficient and they'll probably last longer than most.

I could go into a whole load of pattern recognition and load up lots of evidence that would take a long time and without all that context it would just come off as a batshit conspiracy theory. But that guy knows that challenging times will come.

How do I know when all these things are going to happen? Human pattern recognition, ignore the news and the details, just watch the patterns.

Don't panic, it's not an overnight WW3 scenario, it's lots of sparks in lots of places that when you join the dots you see where it's going, you won't notice it coming in like a sledgehammer, it'll just creep in, like the inflation/interest stuff I was telling you about two years before it happened.

[Noggin]

I've got a mate that goes to church and he really didn't strike me as a religious bloke, so I asked him about it.
He said he doesn't believe in god, but if you follow the principles they lay down then you have to be kind to people, help your community and generally just be a nice human being, he said he believes in that.

I understand the criticisms of organised religion, but I think if you're one of the genuine live and let live types then it must get terribly boring to keep hearing people dig at it all the time.

My question would be.... why does he need a religion to behave like a nice person? Does he think that if he doesn't go to church then he'll suddenly undergo a major personality change?


(Yes - I understand the point that attending church can be seen as a social engagement event and thus bring a person into the community, but it's hardly the only such event).

Yeah that's a good question.

To answer it briefly it's just a good way of identifying people open to communicating and being part of a community, if you go to church you're probably there to connect in a positive way with other charitably community minded people. You could do it through another group but you already kind of know what you're getting with church attendees.

It was actually going to church that put me off religion. Even as a kid I knew some of the adults that put their best clothes on and their friendly face on in church were pretty unpleasant outside of Sunday. (We were CoE not Catholic, so they didn't really get a clean slate from confession like the Catholics!!)

Then I started working in pubs at 18 and in one in particular the local vicar spent a lot of time in there. I don't think they should stay sober etc, but they should behave better than he did.

Despite that, every now and then I'd try a church again and early in working at the pub, I ended up in the church of this vicar - to see someone I knew was not a nice or particularly good person standing up there above the congregation and saying "YOU must repent your sins, YOU must ask for forgiveness" etc made me feel that it was all a bit off

I did try a couple of other denominations that used "we" and that I didn't see the main person in the pub behaving horribly.

But, when you see people you know are not nice people being celebrated for going to church on sunday and everyone thinking they are then perfect, that kinda sucks.

I also struggle with "it's god's will" in any denomination - that tends to make believers sit on their butts and wait for their sky fairy to "save" them. And WTF would an all seeing god that punishes evil allow all the shit to happen that has and does?

I am not sure I'm atheist, I kind of believe in something, but NOT an all seeing all powerful person. I believe that people should be kind etc. But don't rely on that all seeing, loving but vengeful image because I'm not sure that, in any denomination, that is as good and kind as people want to believe

Thing is I have do have friends that are priests/vicars (not just The Priest). One upset me because, after working together for a summer whilst she was training, we hugged to say goodbye cos I was leaving to come back here and she decided to inflict a prayer over me as we hugged. I really really didn't like that. She believes and was fully aware that I didn't. I appreciated that she wanted to say a prayer for me, but would have appreciated it a LOT more if she'd kept it in her head !!!


I think that when good people believe in their god it can be helpful and amazing '(our The Priest is an amazing example of someone like that) - but I think they would probably still have been good and kind and helpful etc without believing

Although I'm being a bit simplistic, people don't need a "higher power" or "deity" to be good and do the right thing - but some people need a set of beliefs (especially the confess your sins and all is forgiven type) to function on the other 6 days a week

[Rockburner]

I've got a mate that goes to church and he really didn't strike me as a religious bloke, so I asked him about it.
He said he doesn't believe in god, but if you follow the principles they lay down then you have to be kind to people, help your community and generally just be a nice human being, he said he believes in that.

I understand the criticisms of organised religion, but I think if you're one of the genuine live and let live types then it must get terribly boring to keep hearing people dig at it all the time.

My question would be.... why does he need a religion to behave like a nice person? Does he think that if he doesn't go to church then he'll suddenly undergo a major personality change?


(Yes - I understand the point that attending church can be seen as a social engagement event and thus bring a person into the community, but it's hardly the only such event).

Yeah that's a good question.

To answer it briefly it's just a good way of identifying people open to communicating and being part of a community, if you go to church you're probably there to connect in a positive way with other charitably community minded people. You could do it through another group but you already kind of know what you're getting with church attendees.

There is a guy in Texas (ex special forces) who has made an inventory of everyone in his community (via his church) and what their skills are, he's then created a plan to manage major incidents like famines, pandemics, etc, using the skills in the community.
They can close off their small community, become self-sufficient and they'll probably last longer than most.

I could go into a whole load of pattern recognition and load up lots of evidence that would take a long time and without all that context it would just come off as a batshit conspiracy theory. But that guy knows that challenging times will come.

How do I know when all these things are going to happen? Human pattern recognition, ignore the news and the details, just watch the patterns.

Don't panic, it's not an overnight WW3 scenario, it's lots of sparks in lots of places that when you join the dots you see where it's going, you won't notice it coming in like a sledgehammer, it'll just creep in, like the inflation/interest stuff I was telling you about two years before it happened.

The irony being, of course, that behaviour like that (loosely part of "prepping") is somewhat driving the patterns that you say you're seeing. It's a cyclical loop. A fear based behaviour is noticed, mimicked, and drives another level of the behaviour round and round. If we could remove the fear of the unknown from our societies then I'm pretty sure we could live in a better society (and no, I don't think religion, based as it is on fear* is a solution).


* "Be good or go to hell".

[ZRX61]

I've got a mate that goes to church and he really didn't strike me as a religious bloke, so I asked him about it.
He said he doesn't believe in god, but if you follow the principles they lay down then you have to be kind to people, help your community and generally just be a nice human being, he said he believes in that.

I understand the criticisms of organised religion, but I think if you're one of the genuine live and let live types then it must get terribly boring to keep hearing people dig at it all the time.

You can do all that without the threat of eternal damnation.

[Yambo]

Does that mean that God was wrong? Where does this leave the theory of divine infallibility? Or did that go out of the window with the slavery reparations?

I would humbly suggest that the vicar's interpretation was wrong but ol' g~d works in mysterious ways . . .

I have my own arguments about all the gods out there and religion(s) in general but I'm usually quite blunt and not as articulate is Hitchens:

[Dodgy69]

Racist init.

[Yorick]

Believers just get on with their lives.

Some non believers seem compelled to ridicule and mock at every opportunity.

What happened to live and let live?

[Noggin]

Believers just get on with their lives.

Some non believers seem compelled to ridicule and mock at every opportunity.

What happened to live and let live?

I wouldn’t ever ridicule. I do think some of it is ridiculous but if it helps make people want to be kind/good, then I’m all for it (if I don’t have to join in)

It’s when it’s used as excuse to do wrong or evil I struggle

[gremlin]

What happened to live and let live?

Exactly. Maybe ask the families who are now being apologised to why they weren't allowed to live and let live.

And to be clear, I'm not mocking nor ridiculing. Simply asking challenging questions that in 56 years I've never had a feasible answer to.

[mangocrazy]

Believers just get on with their lives.

Some non believers seem compelled to ridicule and mock at every opportunity.

What happened to live and let live?

I agree with that and I think most folk on this forum could completely agree with that position. It's when religion (of any flavour) is pushed at you that I get annoyed. The most obvious proponents of this evangelical fervour are Jehovah's Witnesses. For my sins (of which there are many) I was a JW umtil about the age of 20; my excuse being that Mum and Dad Got Religion when I was a toddler and at first it all seemed normal. It was only when I got older that the dissonance crept in.

And I can tell you that going round knocking on doors trying to convince people of something in which they have zero interest is a pretty soul-destroying pursuit. But if you choose to offer yourself up for large scale rejection, you do deserve what you get.

Did my brief spell in the JWs make me a better person? I have absolutely no idea. But I only learned to swear properly after I left them, I do know that...

[Rockburner]

What happened to live and let live?

[ZRX61]

Believers just get on with their lives.

Some non believers seem compelled to ridicule and mock at every opportunity.

What happened to live and let live?

If only that were true. I've yet to have an atheist accost me in public or show up on my doorstep to tell me about science/reality. Every weekend we have the bible squad blathering away with megaphones on a couple corners here in town.
If what these muppets claim was true, people would be beating a path to THEIR door & the fuckers wouldn't be disturbing me at home... & their book wouldn't have the word "version" on the cover, the local bible store has FOUR HUNDRED different versions...