revtothelimit - motorbike forum

Just reading about this - it's one thing for BMW (and others) to ship cars with features that aren't activated but another for a bike to have all options for the first thousand miles before they're switched off.

https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/ktm-demo-mode

"The 2023 KTM 890 Adventure R comes with a wide array of electronic rider aids and optional features when you buy it from the dealer. For the first 1,500 kilometers (932 miles), all of those options are activated. At the end of that period, buyers can then decide which features they want to keep and pay for them. They lose the ones they don't pay for."

Wow.

The purchase price of the bike must cover the cost of the sensors/software to enable the features or they'd make no money if every customer decided they didn't need them. So imho this is just blatant profiteering.

ChrisW wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 7:46 am Just reading about this - it's one thing for BMW (and others) to ship cars with features that aren't activated but another for a bike to have all options for the first thousand miles before they're switched off.

https://www.revzilla.com/common-tread/ktm-demo-mode

"The 2023 KTM 890 Adventure R comes with a wide array of electronic rider aids and optional features when you buy it from the dealer. For the first 1,500 kilometers (932 miles), all of those options are activated. At the end of that period, buyers can then decide which features they want to keep and pay for them. They lose the ones they don't pay for."

WEll KTM have been doing part of it for a few years now, with them usually coming with NONE of them activated, but you can unlock with Track or Tech packs.... So they're now just giving you a way of knowing which bits you may want.

Do i agree with it, no, not really. But they seem to be doing OK with it.

I assume there's some kind of lock/encryption that stops anyone with a cable and a laptop unlocking these features, but if it becomes the norm I image the l33t h4x0rs will find a way to crack it.

Maybe it would sit better if there was an optional demo mode available on demand?

To me it's the default of everything on from new before automatically deactivating that seems particularly off.

I quite like the idea. If it's anything like cars I set stuff up and never change it so a good % of options never get used after week one. I'd like to turn some stuff off completely too.

It's no different really from selling you a basic bike then selling you extra facilities - I think I prefer the 'here's everything, decide what you actually want/use'. Rather that than paying extra, then finding you don't use something.

So, I'm a

As long as you are buying the function outright and not just leasing it. And it'd be nice to have a certifiable list of active functions for when you come to sell the bike.

cheb wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 8:47 am And it'd be nice to have a certifiable list of active functions for when you come to sell the bike.

Do you mean to justify a higher price? Interesting one, because presumably any subsequent owners will be able to purchase any additional options anyway? But then they would have to pay full KTM prices.

There's that, and the buyer knows what he's getting, especially if buying it from a dealer.

It's just an upsell technique that happens a lot with software... try out all the features and figure out what you need and buy that version. They're obviously hoping that by the end of the trial period that you'll find all the features indispensable.

It's not like they're hiding anything and the decision to buy the bike or the features is yours so I can't understand why anyone thinks it's a rip-off. You might think that it's expensive but that doesn't change the fact that it's all out in the open and you can choose whether to buy or not.

I think that a lot of this comes down to the lack of acceptance that paying for software related stuff makes sense because you don't get anything physical. The presence of the sensors on the bike doesn't make any difference partly as they'll be used for other things but mainly because the development cost comes from taking the input from those sensors and turning in to a behaviour of the bike. You're not paying for the sensor to be turned on, you're paying for the feature that cost an amount to develop in software. I'd be perfectly happy not to pay for the cost of a launch control for example.

dern wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 10:56 am The presence of the sensors on the bike doesn't make any difference partly as they'll be used for other things but mainly because the development cost comes from taking the input from those sensors and turning in to a behaviour of the bike. You're not paying for the sensor to be turned on, you're paying for the feature that cost an amount to develop in software.

This ^^^.

When you buy a physical component for your bike, particularly a fancy highly engineered one, a very big chunk of the cost is the time various people spent designing/making it. Nearly all of the cost in fact, the raw materials cost very little.

Why would software be different?

What happens if nobody ticks the box for the upgrade, the R&D costs won't be covered?

KungFooBob wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:15 am What happens if nobody ticks the box for the upgrade, the R&D costs won't be covered?

They will.... because the Packs are the cool things people want

e.g Cruise Control, QS, Blipper, adjustable suspension etc... All the things people want on the bike

weeksy wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:17 am

KungFooBob wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:15 am What happens if nobody ticks the box for the upgrade, the R&D costs won't be covered?

They will.... because the Packs are the cool things people want

e.g Cruise Control, QS, Blipper, adjustable suspension etc... All the things people want on the bike

I'd not want the first 3, but adjustable suspension sounds good. But the mechanical stuff to do it could be expensive.

KungFooBob wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:15 am What happens if nobody ticks the box for the upgrade, the R&D costs won't be covered?

The same thing as for any other option, KTM will learn that that's not a feature people want and will have to suck up the cost of development.

KungFooBob wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:15 am What happens if nobody ticks the box for the upgrade, the R&D costs won't be covered?

That's true of any optional extra?

How does software make the suspension adjustable?

I guess it's different with software.

In the good old days I used to hunt scrap yards for the optional extra's high spec cars got to fit to my council model.

The parts were fitted at the factory/dealers when you ordered the car. A car with less features had less parts fitted, rather than the parts fitted and disabled.

It was cheaper to build a car with no cup holder, than it was to fit a cup holder and not let you use it. It's why the BMW heated seats thing confuses me. They've paid for the raw materials and manhours to fit the heated seats. The car costs more to make than one without heated seats. Maybe I'm just old skool.

KungFooBob wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:44 am They've paid for the raw materials and manhours to fit the heated seats. The car costs more to make than one without heated seats. Maybe I'm just old skool.

Making every seat the same, albeit at a higher cost, might actually be cheaper than making some different. In high volume manufacture variability can be quite expensive. Depends how many of each sort you expect to sell, something BMW will have done some pretty in depth sums on.

Mr. Dazzle wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:46 am

KungFooBob wrote: Fri Oct 14, 2022 11:44 am They've paid for the raw materials and manhours to fit the heated seats. The car costs more to make than one without heated seats. Maybe I'm just old skool.

Making every seat the same, albeit at a higher cost, might actually be cheaper than making some different. In high volume manufacture variability can be quite expensive. Depends how many of each sort you expect to sell, something BMW will have done some pretty in depth sums on.

Certainly makes for easier stock control.