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Hydrogen powered flight
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:57 pm
by Taff
There's a number of projects going on to try to be the first to use hydrogen to power aircraft, here's Airbus's plans for a flying testbed in & on an A380 and a really good explanation of the project.
It looks to be ambitious and the environmental benefits would be huge
https://www.airbus.com/en/newsroom/stor ... ell-engine
Re: Hydrogen powered flight
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:58 pm
by MingtheMerciless
Hmm hydrogen and flying vehicles was tried a few years ago, it didn't end well.
Re: Hydrogen powered flight
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:22 pm
by demographic
MingtheMerciless wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:58 pm
Hmm hydrogen and flying vehicles was tried a few years ago, it didn't end well.
Random fact for the day but my (now dead) uncle Geoff sas the Hindenburg over Keithley when he was a young lad.
That was in the 1930s.
Re: Hydrogen powered flight
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:23 pm
by Yorick
demographic wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:22 pm
MingtheMerciless wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:58 pm
Hmm hydrogen and flying vehicles was tried a few years ago, it didn't end well.
Random fact for the day but my (now dead) uncle Geoff sas the Hindenburg over Keithley when he was a young lad.
That was in the 1930s.
Apparently it went over Keighley as well
Re: Hydrogen powered flight
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:25 pm
by demographic
Yorick wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:23 pm
demographic wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:22 pm
MingtheMerciless wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:58 pm
Hmm hydrogen and flying vehicles was tried a few years ago, it didn't end well.
Random fact for the day but my (now dead) uncle Geoff sas the Hindenburg over Keithley when he was a young lad.
That was in the 1930s.
Apparently it went over Keighley as well
Should have known you'd set me right, I've only ever passed through it on the way to me grans.
Re: Hydrogen powered flight
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:28 pm
by Yorick
demographic wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:25 pm
Yorick wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:23 pm
demographic wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:22 pm
Random fact for the day but my (now dead) uncle Geoff sas the Hindenburg over Keithley when he was a young lad.
That was in the 1930s.
Apparently it went over Keighley as well
Should have known you'd set me right, I've only ever passed through it on the way to me grans.
Re: Hydrogen powered flight
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:31 pm
by Mr. Dazzle
The proposed planes look really odd to me, 'cause the wings are a long splindly shape. They'd keep the hydrogen in pressure tanks at the back, rather than in the wings like they do with jet fuel, thus leaving you free to optimise the wings just for flyin'. I.e. they don't have to be tanks too. Note the lack of windows at the back...
Re: Hydrogen powered flight
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:45 pm
by Taff
It'll be interesting to see if there's an overall weight saving with all of the hydrogen kit Vs full tanks of fuel
Re: Hydrogen powered flight
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:47 pm
by Mr. Dazzle
That's the perennial problem with hydrogen innit?
The fuel itself is very light, lightest element in the Universe after all, but also takes up loads of space. As a fuel it's incredibly efficient in terms of energy/mass but much worse in terms of physical size and hence the size of tank you need.
One of the big enablers in Hydrogen flight is the development of cost effective and safe composite (i.e. carbon fibre) pressure tanks. A few of my ex-colleagues work in this field now, so my LinkedIn is covered in it.
Re: Hydrogen powered flight
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 8:02 pm
by Demannu
MingtheMerciless wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:58 pm
Hmm hydrogen and flying vehicles was tried a few years ago, it didn't end well.
And of course aviation fuel is completely safe!
Pretty sure they'll not store it 1930s designed bellows........ohhh, hang on, it's Safran designing it.......
Re: Hydrogen powered flight
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 8:11 pm
by Count Steer
Mr. Dazzle wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:47 pm
That's the perennial problem with hydrogen innit?
The fuel itself is very light, lightest element in the Universe after all, but also takes up loads of space. As a fuel it's incredibly efficient in terms of energy/mass but much worse in terms of physical size and hence the size of tank you need.
They're making progress with reversible storage in solid salts. Seems the obvious way to go. No tanks to explode, you can probably fire a bullet through the store without it going boom.
eg
https://www.acs.org/pressroom/newsrelea ... salts.html
Re: Hydrogen powered flight
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 8:26 pm
by Le_Fromage_Grande
Where's the hydrogen going to come from?
And you're still dumping tons of water vapour into the upper atmosphere, I assume it's being looked at for environmental reasons, it'd save the environment a lot more of people stopped flying on holiday and pointless business trips.
Re: Hydrogen powered flight
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 8:35 pm
by Horse
MingtheMerciless wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 6:58 pm
Hmm hydrogen and flying vehicles was tried a few years ago, it didn't end well.
Amazingly, 23 of the 36 passengers and 39 crew survived!
IIRC because the hydrogen is lighter than air (
) when it ruptured the gas went up as it burned. In film, you can see people below and climbing down ropes.
Re: Hydrogen powered flight
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 9:06 pm
by ZRX61
Mr. Dazzle wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:47 pm
That's the perennial problem with hydrogen innit?
The fuel itself is very light, lightest element in the Universe after all, but also takes up loads of space. As a fuel it's incredibly efficient in terms of energy/mass but much worse in terms of physical size and hence the size of tank you need.
One of the big enablers in Hydrogen flight is the development of cost effective and safe composite (i.e. carbon fibre) pressure tanks. A few of my ex-colleagues work in this field now, so my LinkedIn is covered in it.
I think that was the issue that ended the Lockheed VentureStar program, they couldn't build tanks big enough that didn't leak or fail.
Re: Hydrogen powered flight
Posted: Thu Jan 05, 2023 9:17 pm
by Mr. Dazzle
IIRC they were also trying to make them not round, which is always a pisser with a pressure vessel
Re: Hydrogen powered flight
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2023 12:12 am
by ZRX61
Yes, sticky bun shaped.
Re: Hydrogen powered flight
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2023 12:16 pm
by gremlin
Mr. Dazzle wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:31 pm
Note the lack of windows at the back...
Excellent! 'Steerage Class'. Keeps the riff-raff out.
Re: Hydrogen powered flight
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2023 12:29 pm
by Horse
gremlin wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 12:16 pm
Mr. Dazzle wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:31 pm
Note the lack of windows at the back...
Excellent! 'Steerage Class'. Keeps the riff-raff out.
No seats either. Hanging straps, like on the tube.
Re: Hydrogen powered flight
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2023 12:48 pm
by Mr. Dazzle
gremlin wrote: Fri Jan 06, 2023 12:16 pm
Mr. Dazzle wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 7:31 pm
Note the lack of windows at the back...
Excellent! 'Steerage Class'. Keeps the riff-raff out.
They still don't fit enough lifeboats for all the economy class passengers, just sayin'.
Re: Hydrogen powered flight
Posted: Fri Jan 06, 2023 10:10 pm
by MyLittleStudPony
Le_Fromage_Grande wrote: Thu Jan 05, 2023 8:26 pm
Where's the hydrogen going to come from?
And you're still dumping tons of water vapour into the upper atmosphere, I assume it's being looked at for environmental reasons, it'd save the environment a lot more of people stopped flying on holiday and pointless business trips.
It's simple enough to create hydrogen using renewable energy. But fucking expensive. It's really necessary to massively increase the cost of air travel. The polluters will pay!