Inconsequential ramblings of an Old Git

[ChrisW]

As you can't feel any wear on the race I'd leave them be for now, properly cleaned and slathered as you say, if it were me.

[KungFooBob]

Whole thing is fucked.

I'll take if off your hands for £500, but I'm cutting my own throat at that.

[mangocrazy]

Whole thing is fucked.

I'll take if off your hands for £500, but I'm cutting my own throat at that.

Is that before or after you've set it on fire?

[Buckaroo]

What does it feel like when you put the dry and clean bearing into the race, apply a bit of pressure and rotate it? We often think headset bearings are knackered, but a proper clean and lube, plus the right torque and they're good to go.

[mangocrazy]

What does it feel like when you put the dry and clean bearing into the race, apply a bit of pressure and rotate it? We often think headset bearings are knackered, but a proper clean and lube, plus the right torque and they're good to go.

Good point - test them without the cushioning effect of grease and if they're not up to spec you'll notice it. I'll give that a go tomorrow.

Thanks.

[A_morti]

This is very much a "while you are in there" type of job.

Just get her done. Just the bottom bearing is enough in this case.

There's really no reason not to as even a top quality bearing will only cost a few beans and it's better than finding out in a few months when what you really want to do is ride it, that it was indeed on its way out.

[mangocrazy]

The main problem I see is actually removing the outer race from the bottom of the headstock. It sits entirely flush with the headstock inner, so there is nothing projecting that I can get at to drift the old one out, and Dremeling it out would be a total pain. If it was notched or cratered it would have to come out, but I've checked again and there is absolutely no indentation, wear or irregularity that I can feel.

I'll do as Buckaroo suggests, clean everything off and reassemble dry and see if I can feel any notchiness, but if it all checks out then I'd question the wisdom of removing something that passes muster.

If it's in any way dodgy it comes out, one way or another, but otherwise I'm not about to disturb a sleeping dog...

[Buckaroo]

The main problem I see is actually removing the outer race from the bottom of the headstock. It sits entirely flush with the headstock inner, so there is nothing projecting that I can get at to drift the old one out, and Dremeling it out would be a total pain. If it was notched or cratered it would have to come out, but I've checked again and there is absolutely no indentation, wear or irregularity that I can feel.

I'll do as Buckaroo suggests, clean everything off and reassemble dry and see if I can feel any notchiness, but if it all checks out then I'd question the wisdom of removing something that passes muster.

If it's in any way dodgy it comes out, one way or another, but otherwise I'm not about to disturb a sleeping dog...

The same problem occurs with bicycle head set bearings. We've had lots of times where there's nothing to gain purchase on to drift the bearing out. Dremel is the last resort and it's time consuming, especially on carbon frames. We have had some success using a broad flat screwdriver at an angle, then kind of tapping and levering across four points. Needs two people to do it. Good luck.

[Bustaspoke]

In your situation I would clean everything up & reassemble.The lower race on a road bike is a proper PITA to remove,race bikes are easy there's a slot in the headtube that allows you to get a drift in there.I've had the dubious task of removing the bearing races on both my old FZ750 &XT600 ..
On both bikes I was stripping them down & getting the frame powdercoated & ended up taking the frames to my mates garage as he has a welder.What you do is Tack the race with the welder & the race drops out due to it getting hot (I know,you'd think it would expand with the heat & become more firmly stuck but we've done it twice on my frames & the race just dropped out both times).
Here's a image of the lower race on my old XT600



It dropped straight out after using the welder.You could do the same but it seems to me that you would be making work for yourself

[mangocrazy]

Thanks chaps. Yes, I'm aware of the 'run a bead of weld around the race and it drops out' trick. I did something similar on a totally stuck wheel bearing on the Lancia a few years back and it did work, but grovelling around on the floor firing a stick welder upwards at a bottom head race is not high on my list of fun activities...

Given that I can't feel any notches or irregularities with my fingernail, I'm leaning more to the clean it, slather it in grease and reassemble it point of view. I will clean all the bearings and races with lots of brake cleaner and then reassemble dry and test (tomorrow). If there is a problem that should show it up as there won't be the weight of the wheel, forks etc damping out any minor notchiness.

More news as it happens...

[Horse]

I hid an entire bike from my wife. She only suspected something when I went on a track day and left my roadbike behind.

Ex-Filly looked out of the sitting room window, said: "I wonder whose BMW that is?"

[A_morti]

You must have removed it once before...

[mangocrazy]

You must have removed it once before...

Indeed. But back then they would have been ball races, not taper rollers.

The bead of weld thing is obviously an option, but if what's fitted does the job, why go to the extra bother? I'm 95% sure that what caused the flappy/slappy feeling was simply down to bad adjustment. Whether that bad adjustment has also caused damage is moot.

I'm still undecided...

[Ian]

Sometimes you get that flappy feeling when you overtighten taper roller headraces. Had them in my ZZR 600 and the MOT man always wanted them tight and it made the bike squirrelly, back them off to firm finger tight and they were fine. They were new bearings, I put them in so there was nothing wrong with them.

[mangocrazy]

Sometimes you get that flappy feeling when you overtighten taper roller headraces. Had them in my ZZR 600 and the MOT man always wanted them tight and it made the bike squirrelly, back them off to firm finger tight and they were fine. They were new bearings, I put them in so there was nothing wrong with them.

I went through this little dance with the VFR a year or so back. I tightened them up to the point that, as you say, they became notchy just to try and cure a perceived knock from the front end. I backed the adjustment off half a turn and they were worlds better.

The heater is on in the shed and I've given the taper rollers a good dousing and scrubbing in brake cleaner (while in the warmth of the house). When the shed's warmed up a bit I'll go back in and do a dry build and test on the bearings/races.

[Ian]

Brake cleaner and heater in the same sentence makes me nervous

[mangocrazy]

Understand your concern, but heater is in the shed, brake cleaner was in my cellar workshop (no heater).

[mangocrazy]

OK, I've made my decision. The old races are coming out and the new 'All Balls' (shudder) bearings and races are going to replace them.

Not what you expected perhaps? The reason for my apparent about-face is twofold. Firstly, when I assembled the old bearings back into the head after having cleaned them and with no lube they definitely felt notchy, both with normal preload applied and even more so with extra preload. I only used fingers to tighten the castellated nut down, so no banging on it with hammer and chisel, but it still didn't feel 'good'. This was the case with varying levels of preload.

My second reason was due to something I'd noticed earlier but had chosen to ignore, I guess. The upper bearing race protrudes out of the headstock by 7-8mm. This isn't a good look and was doubtless due to Yamaha's designers not envisaging that people would be fitting aftermarket taper roller head bearings. The race itself has a depth of half an inch (12mm). The same is true of the bottom race. But upside down, obvs. This has the knock on effect that when everything is assembled there is only about 3 or 4mm of thread on the headstock spindle for the castellated nut to attach to - about a turn and a half is what I measured. Furthermore the top bearing does not seat on the spindle for its full depth, it only seats for half its depth, if that. So it's all a bit of a shitshow, to be honest.

This became apparent when I compared the AB bearings and races to the Timken ones currently fitted. The people who put the AB bearing kit together realised this shortcoming and used reduced depth bearings and races to claw back as much of the lost depth as possible. The AB races are just 8mm deep (compared to 12mm), which should reclaim a total of 8mm thread engagement on the spindle and should allow the top race to seat on the spindle over its full depth. Once I'd realised this, it was a bit of a no-brainer to be fair.

So at some point in the future I'll be digging out the stick welder and putting on my Big Boy Bravery pants prior to laying beads of weld on bearing races. I think I might also investigate how to set the Skylift to the wheelie position to give me better access to the bottom race.

But that can wait for another day. I'm currently eyeing up a takeaway Lamb Rogan Josh and a nice bottle of southern Rhone red (Vinsobre to be precise).

[mangocrazy]

I'm flip-flopping between the LC and the new (to me) Falco at the moment. Today was the turn of the Falco. One of the main things I need to do is to rid the wiring loom of all the add-on tat the PO festooned the bike with. To do this I need to get to the bones of the bike so today was initially about removing the rest of the body panels - lower fairing, side panels, top fairing and circular wind deflector that sits under the bottom fork yoke and is a twat to remove, as was the top fairing. Here's the bike minus bodywork (with an 888 SP3 lurking in the background.) :

DSCF4692.JPG (740.39 KiB) Viewed 1766 times

Eventually all the bits were off, then it was time to remove the Ohlins steering damper. This was situated in the hardest to get at place of all - bolted to the frame by the bottom yoke and to the RH fork leg. As with a number of other bolts on the bike, they seem to have been partially rounded off, probably by over zealous use of a twelve point socket. The steering damper will be for sale once I get a round tuit. Falcos don't need steering dampers.

Next the front brake was removed as a complete system (the only way to avoid brake fluid getting all over the place, in my view). On the bike this felt horribly spongey and looks like it needs a good stripdown, possible new seals and definitely new fluid. Like the rest of the bike, the brakes don't look like they've received any attention in the last decade. Here they are liberated from the bike:

DSCF4696.JPG (948.47 KiB) Viewed 1766 times

The last job of the day was the one I'd been dreading; getting God knows how many years worth of Scottoil and road grime off the rear wheel, sprocket and carrier. It was a case of nitrile gloves on, a reasonably stiff brush, Jizer and elbow grease. I can't pretend it was fun. I was disturbing layer on layer of filth, and it was clinging on tenaciously to the wheel. Eventually I got to the point where a) I'd had enough and b) I was running out of Jizer so it was time to wash all the unpleasantness off with lots of hot soapy water. Once it had dried off a bit this was the end result:

DSCF4695.JPG (900.6 KiB) Viewed 1766 times

It's not proper © WeeksyClean™, but it's way better than what it was. I will go over it again with Jizer to clean off the bits I missed this time round and then it will be treated to some polish for the first time in well over a decade. And as it happens, Mrs Mango will be working in the office for the next few days, so I will have the full run of the kitchen. This could work very well, or could go horribly wrong...

[Buckaroo]

That's a nice colour for a rim. Didn't imagine it'd be that good.