Any experts on electro-mechancal meters out there?

[mangocrazy]

Let me explain... This could have gone in my French fixer-upper thread, but it probably makes more sense for it to have a thread of its own.

As you may be aware, I have a property in the south of france, and that property has had solar photovoltaic panels on its roof since April 2018. I can best decribe the sellers\installers as persuasive semi-cowboys. The kit they installed was top quality stuff at a very reasonable price (although you could doubtless get them cheaper today) but it was the tricky bit of interfacing the solar output to the French grid, owned and run by Enedis that they were less clear about. The installers insisted that all I needed to do was to watch the meter run backwards and wait for the cheques to pop through my letter box.

At the time I was deeply sceptical, but thought it was worth a try. I know now it was a bare-faced lie and the cheques appear to be caught up somewhere in the French mail system and have been for over 7 years.

Things came to a head when my trusty old black electro-mechanical meter was replaced with a new fluoro-green digital Linky meter. At that point I expected that the long-delayed rebate would finally arrive and that the 12000 or so units that my panels had deducted from the original pre-solar panel reading would trigger the jackpot.

It didn't. It triggered a bill for €2651.03.

When I pointed out that I had supplied the French grid with a net input of over 12000 units the response from Enedis was that because the meter was working backwards it was no longer reliable and the figure could not be trusted. They then did their own calculations which indicated a shortfall of €2651.03. How convenient.

This has now gone to a second-level dispute, and Enedis have delayed responding to the 'Consommateur' for two weeks. However I did find out that when it came down to it, what Enedis said would be taken as The Law. They are effectively a part of Government, after all. I don't hold out much hope of Enedis coming over all conciliatory, so am preparing myself for escalation to the third and final level, the 'Mediateur' (the Ombudsman in UK parlance.

So as my case depends almost entirely on the final meter reading I need to know if a meter running backwards is as reliable and accurate as one running forwards, and if not by a factor of how much will it be out?

Thanks in advance...

[Count Steer]

Apparently old meters don't run backwards accurately. (I thought they did).

If you Google* 'do electricity meters run backwards accurately' there's quite a lot of information.

* If you haven't already, obvs.

[Mussels]

Why did it take 7 years for them to notice the readings were wrong? That could be a good argument to present to the mediateur.

[Cousin Jack]

The guts of the meter, the disc that spins in an electromagnetic field should have the same force on it running backwards or forwards. However all the following train of digit wheels will have been designed to work forwards only. They may not even be capable of running backwards in some meters. At best they will be unreliable.[

[mangocrazy]

I have Googled several expressions like that, but the search engine doesn't seem to focus on the 'accurate' part of the query, just the 'meter running backwards' bit. I guess I need to make enquiries of a firm that manufactures these old meters (if any still exist).

[mangocrazy]

Why did it take 7 years for them to notice the readings were wrong? That could be a good argument to present to the mediateur.

I've tried numerous times to submit meter readings, but the fact that the reading is lower than the previous one(s) always fries their brains, even when I tell them repeatedly about the solar panels.

[mangocrazy]

The guts of the meter, the disc that spins in an electromagnetic field should have the same force on it running backwards or forwards. However all the following train of digit wheels will have been designed to work forwards only. They may not even be capable of running backwards in some meters. At best they will be unreliable.[

That is in effect what Enedis state. Mine is definitely capable of running backwards, the question is the degree of accuracy of the reading.

[Count Steer]

Why did it take 7 years for them to notice the readings were wrong? That could be a good argument to present to the mediateur.

I've tried numerous times to submit meter readings, but the fact that the reading is lower than the previous one(s) always fries their brains, even when I tell them repeatedly about the solar panels.

Ye gods! I even had trouble with an English speaking company (TWat) when I supplied a proper reading to replace the misread their reader had taken. It was lower...so they assumed the meter had gone forward, 'round the clock' and I'd used millions of cu m of water....and billed me accordingly. Could they get it into their skulls that this was obviously wrong? Or, just maybe, I knew as much (more) about utility metering than their meter reader and yes, I actually can read a meter? Well, eventually.

Heaven help you with a French outfit!!!

[mangocrazy]

Heaven help you with a French maid's outfit!!!

That had honestly never occurred to me...

[Mr. Dazzle]

The guts of the meter, the disc that spins in an electromagnetic field should have the same force on it running backwards or forwards. However all the following train of digit wheels will have been designed to work forwards only. They may not even be capable of running backwards in some meters. At best they will be unreliable.[

That is in effect what Enedis state. Mine is definitely capable of running backwards, the question is the degree of accuracy of the reading.

Yeah if it's a truly electromechanical reading the 'spinnny bit' will spin backwards fine but the 'odometer bit' which does the total count up often won't count backwards correctly - by design!

'cause if it did, you could open up the counter and clock it like Ferris Bueller. Which, incidentally, is why I know this in the first place. Made me think "surely you'd design it to not do that" In fact, just wiring it backwards would make it run in reverse and give you free leccy I think? So from an error proofing POV alone wouldn't you design it to count up in either direction?

These counters are often/usually made by a third party though right? Is it worth seeing if you can get their view in preparation for level 3?

[mangocrazy]

I'm resigned to not being able to use the meter reading on the old analog meter in my defence. Even if Enedis were aware of any correction factor that could be applied they certainly aren't going to share that with me.

So I'm intending to use a different tack. The new Linky digital meter that was installed on June 23rd is a bi-directional meter. It can seperate out and record electricity in (i.e. consumption) and electricity out (output from solar panels). So when I head back in a couple of weeks time I will find out how much my solar panels have injected iton the EDF/Enedis network, vs. how much electricity has been consumed in that period. With that information I can make a pretty accurate projection of how much EDF/Enedis have benefitted from my electricity during the lifetime of the solar panels (seven and a half years).

I'm not expecting a whopping great refund, but I do intend to get the most recent bill shit-canned.

[.....]

If you use the 'EDF et moi' app, iirc it gives a daily breakdown of usage. Should give you a broad overview of in/out/shake it all about power consumption.
However EDF/Enerdis have a history of using the customer for interest free loans for.......ever!

Fil had panels fitted in the UK, nobody (installers) registered it with the feed in tariff, discovered he'd supplied a few megawatts (according to the FIT meter).
We were told that they couldn't be sure that the (brand new) meter was 'zero'd'. Eventually received a derisory sum as a goodwill payment after we threatened to get Martyn Lewis involved.

[mangocrazy]

If you use the 'EDF et moi' app, iirc it gives a daily breakdown of usage. Should give you a broad overview of in/out/shake it all about power consumption.
However EDF/Enerdis have a history of using the customer for interest free loans for.......ever!

So far I've just been using the web interface in Mon Espace Particulier and In there I can see monthly consumption, but nothing more granular. I guess it's time to download the app to my phone. Any idea where it's available? Is it on the EDF website or something like the Google App store?

[Mr. Dazzle]

I guess it's time to download the app to my phone.

It begins.....

It'll be in the Google play store btw

[mangocrazy]

I guess it's time to download the app to my phone.

It begins.....

It'll be in the Google play store btw

But it's no better than the web access. In fact it's worse because it's on a poxy little screen instead of a 27 inch one...

[Mr. Dazzle]

But it's no better than the web access. In fact it's worse because it's on a poxy little screen instead of a 27 inch one...

More energy efficient innit, and it sounds like you need plenty of that

[mangocrazy]

But it's no better than the web access. In fact it's worse because it's on a poxy little screen instead of a 27 inch one...

More energy efficient innit, and it sounds like you need plenty of that

I think the beer fridge in the attic (next door to the roof terrace) will have to go. It gets stupid hot in the attic in summer and the fridge runs flat out all year round just to keep a few bottles of beer cool.

[.....]

But it's no better than the web access. In fact it's worse because it's on a poxy little screen instead of a 27 inch one...

More energy efficient innit, and it sounds like you need plenty of that

I think the beer fridge in the attic (next door to the roof terrace) will have to go. It gets stupid hot in the attic in summer and the fridge runs flat out all year round just to keep a few bottles of beer cool.

Or possibly invest of some sort of harvesting ability for your solar (lifepo4 battery), small invertor and hey presto......free leccy for beer fridge......eventually!

[mangocrazy]

More energy efficient innit, and it sounds like you need plenty of that

I think the beer fridge in the attic (next door to the roof terrace) will have to go. It gets stupid hot in the attic in summer and the fridge runs flat out all year round just to keep a few bottles of beer cool.

Or possibly invest of some sort of harvesting ability for your solar (lifepo4 battery), small invertor and hey presto......free leccy for beer fridge......eventually!

Definitely thinking about some more panels (still have some south-facing roof free) and battery storage, but whatever happens the beer fridge will be relocated to a cooler room (prob the garage) so it's not spending most of its energy combatting sub-saharan temperatures in the attic. And when I'm not at the house it just gets switched off.

I don't intend to give Enedis a penny/cent more in revenue than I absolutely have to.

[.....]

I think the beer fridge in the attic (next door to the roof terrace) will have to go. It gets stupid hot in the attic in summer and the fridge runs flat out all year round just to keep a few bottles of beer cool.

Or possibly invest of some sort of harvesting ability for your solar (lifepo4 battery), small invertor and hey presto......free leccy for beer fridge......eventually!

I don't intend to give Enedis a penny/cent more in revenue than I absolutely have to.

That's the spirit.
Got your TF bill yet?
Gone up to pre-SMD prices.....and now we have to pay extra for dechets.